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Author Topic: The direction of Sphere  (Read 2901 times)
kamatsu
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 06:18:34 PM »

To make an RPG though, requires art, music, writing, and coding skills, and I only have 3 of the four.
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Mat
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 08:25:31 PM »

Instead of holding a competition we could be holding an, er, "festival" type thing where we lay down some basic rules and people can make their game within those rules when they feel like it? With a set time length as a guideline (but you can take longer or shorter of course).

Yes? No?

Yes. Let's start with a mini action RPG with one dungeon.
I think he means individual entries.

To make an RPG though, requires art, music, writing, and coding skills, and I only have 3 of the four.
I have none of the four :/
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Sarenji
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2009, 12:23:32 AM »

I think Sphere still has a year or two. It'll take even longer for it to completely die. Sphere has definitely gotten a lot better since I first joined (what a long time ago).

Though, to be honest, I'm starting to become less interested in Sphere and more in ika. I've been learning Python for a major project I want to help out with, and ika's code (after a quick glance) now appeals to me more than Sphere's. The only problem, as said before, is lack of a good editor, which is in my opinion really the only (and considerable) advantage Sphere has over ika. The new editor is looking very nice though, especially because of SDHawk's recent screenshot. Once the new editor is done, I will most probably transfer over. Sorry guys!


EDIT:
Quote
To make an RPG though, requires art, music, writing, and coding skills, and I only have 3 of the four.
I have two and a half--not really a good artist here Tongue
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 12:27:05 AM by Sarenji » Logged
Leon
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2009, 01:11:43 AM »

I'll be using it till my death... It makes a great hobby if anything else, as you can do pretty much anything in it, games or practical programs... Security aside, that is.

For the future, user-friendly 3d type of sphere engine should be implemented, but that's just me... A lot of people come here and say "Screw it... there's no 3d graphics support." Of course, they COULD make their own 3d engine, but it runs slow, and they could just go and pick up Microsoft Visual Studio Express and Dark BASIC to do 3d a lot easier, without having to make their own 3d engine. It's just too much work to do 3d stuff in Sphere, and most people that play games are used to 3d by now...

It wouldn't surprise me that in 15-20 years they'll find a way to have 4d games on the market.
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Radnen
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2009, 01:22:34 AM »

It wouldn't surprise me that in 15-20 years they'll find a way to have 4d games on the market.

lol. You do know that is impossible, right?

Sphere for me was and still is a great way to learn programming, but after doing it for several years I'm starting to feel like branching out and trying something new.

... What keeps me here at the community today is Spheres networking feature. Sure its somewhat dodgy, but without it Waudby wouldn't have such a nice Pokemon fan-game. Plus I enjoy using its drawing tool and map editor (which I feel should be improved with one that can at least do terraforming).

After I get a CS degree in college I'll take up the Sphere project and add/change aspects of it for the community. Right now I'm afraid that any change I make will disturb its code and potentially harm it. I assume it takes the right type of person to look at Spheres code and say - "I can handle that!"
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New Sphere Editor: v0.7.0
Recent Sphere Studio Progress:
(7/28) Scrollbar hack implemented for snap-based movement.
(7/27) Image editor overhaul: undo/redo
(7/26) Image editor overhaul: navigation w/ scrollbars
tung
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2009, 02:01:14 AM »

Though, to be honest, I'm starting to become less interested in Sphere and more in ika. I've been learning Python for a major project I want to help out with, and ika's code (after a quick glance) now appeals to me more than Sphere's.

Yeah, JavaScript is lagging behind Python and it ilk. Lack of language-level support for modules really hurts it, for code size growth and extension. The C-like syntax is a mixed blessing, and having looked at both prototyping- and inheritance-based object models, the prototyping path doesn't seem to have any benefits over the alternative, and only leads to confusion to newcomers. There's nothing you can do in prototyping that couldn't be done just as well with inheritance and dynamic reflectable objects.

As far as "scripting" languages go, JavaScript is pretty dated. Even Lua beats it in features.

For the future, user-friendly 3d type of sphere engine should be implemented, but that's just me... A lot of people come here and say "Screw it... there's no 3d graphics support." Of course, they COULD make their own 3d engine, but it runs slow, and they could just go and pick up Microsoft Visual Studio Express and Dark BASIC to do 3d a lot easier, without having to make their own 3d engine. It's just too much work to do 3d stuff in Sphere, and most people that play games are used to 3d by now...

Though I've heard requests for Mode7 support and people asking what happened to Beaker's unofficial 3D experiments, I've never heard of anybody rejecting Sphere based only on lack of 3D support. Personally, I think it's like the "web browser embedding" discussion that keeps popping up: it's a feature that people think others want, but the target audience isn't as large as they believe it is.

Anybody looking to make homebrew 3D games probably wasn't even considering Sphere in the first place, since it's marketed as a system for old-school, top-down RPGs of the SNES era.

After I get a CS degree in college I'll take up the Sphere project and add/change aspects of it for the community. Right now I'm afraid that any change I make will disturb its code and potentially harm it. I assume it takes the right type of person to look at Spheres code and say - "I can handle that!"

If anybody wanted to pick up Sphere again, they'd need to talk to Flikky, get full permissions of the SourceForge project, clean everything up and switch the repo over from CVS to Subversion or something else. If they couldn't do that, they should at least rehost and still switch away from CVS. CVS is antiquated garbage.

There's no way to cause any harm to the Sphere source until the changes go upstream and everybody sees them, so you could experiment with Sphere right now if you really wanted to.
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Leon
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2009, 02:13:29 AM »

It wouldn't surprise me that in 15-20 years they'll find a way to have 4d games on the market.

lol. You do know that is impossible, right?

Yeah, I do know it's impossible (in our current logic anyway.... lol Smiley ), I was just kidding.

Though I've heard requests for Mode7 support and people asking what happened to Beaker's unofficial 3D experiments, I've never heard of anybody rejecting Sphere based only on lack of 3D support. Personally, I think it's like the "web browser embedding" discussion that keeps popping up: it's a feature that people think others want, but the target audience isn't as large as they believe it is.

Well, I've read quite a few posts on "How do we use Sphere for 3d???" and then I look at the post counts of these people, which have been like 1 or 2 posts in a month or something. I'd assumed that they decided against Sphere when they knew of the work that it involved...

It would be a possible plan for the future of Sphere though! There's no reason to stop working with it now!
Another thing that would be interesting (I should probably add this to the feature request, but....) is if you could compile the entire project into a single .EXE file, that way you could hide your source codes from cheaters... (open-source junkies smite me).
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tung
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2009, 03:42:26 AM »

Well, I've read quite a few posts on "How do we use Sphere for 3d???" and then I look at the post counts of these people, which have been like 1 or 2 posts in a month or something. I'd assumed that they decided against Sphere when they knew of the work that it involved...

Maybe you're just reading posts selectively, but I read everything that's posted. Though there are posters like that, and even some scattered discussions of 3D, those still only make up a tiny sliver of the members and posts on this forum.

It's like being told, "Hey, look how many blue cars there are around these days!" and suddenly noticing every single blue car that you cross paths with. Your perspective is skewed because you're subconsciously looking for them.

It would be a possible plan for the future of Sphere though! There's no reason to stop working with it now!

The Sphere source code is large and very difficult to understand, maintain and change. It has some very fundamental design flaws, e.g. no separation between system and user files and folders. It's using an outdated source control system which makes tracking changes very difficult, and controlled experiments all but infeasible. The original author has left, and with him much understanding about the source base, as well as the overarching vision of the project, which is vital. SourceForge.net is clunky and unsuitable for project planning or management, the bug tracking section has turned from a vital feedback list to a forest of overgrown weeds, and same with the feature requests section. There are no automated tests, so there's no way to know if a change to fix something breaks several other things. It's basically a software engineer's nightmare.

I wish I could share your bright-eyed optimism, but with the amount of effort required to understand, modernise and lead the project in new directions, it'd be much easier to start from scratch and make a new project with similar goals, which would have the added benefit of using up-to-date technologies and simpler project management.

Another thing that would be interesting (I should probably add this to the feature request, but....) is if you could compile the entire project into a single .EXE file

We've had this discussion before.

that way you could hide your source codes from cheaters... (open-source junkies smite me).

Nobody on the open-source side of the argument even needs to lift a finger: an open-source license is included with every single copy of Sphere, including the officially hosted CVS repository. 'nuff said.


Actually, it's this kind of "the project guys should just wave their magic wands" attitude that was part of the reason I made this thread. I'm not sure if you guys get how difficult these things really are. They're quite impressive feats, even in a fresh project, never mind something as old, creaking and convoluted as Sphere. I'm tired of having to disappoint people who want feature X or fix Y. Sphere works in that you can grab the source, compile it and it'll run, but beyond that, nothing's changing.

The only way Sphere is going to see even small changes, is if you take the source, make the changes yourself and make a patch. If you get a working patch, heck, I'll even help you get it into mainline. Otherwise, any request you make of Sphere is pretty much just shouting into the void.
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Quipkit: Lua RPG dev kit (thread):
7/27 #40 Add game saves
7/23 #57 Game screen doesn't redraw when switching windows
7/22 #56 Let gamelets call hooks in gamelets below them
Rhuan
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2009, 02:03:47 PM »

I wanted sphere working on Mac, so I got behind the idea and pushed, I suck at C/C++, but with a bit of help from here and there, (quite a bit from Kyuu), it got there.

Regarding making games in sphere, I'm a whizz with JS (though my arrogance can be a problem), but I can't do art or music, and I have little confidence in my writing.
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2009, 02:45:25 PM »

Since nobody here seems to be a guru at everything... maybe make some small teams?

Like a 4v4 faceoff for who can make the best [compo idea].
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DaVince
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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2009, 07:39:57 PM »

About the "package into one .EXE" thing... The SPK format is just fine and should be fixed and used more... and I think that SPKs that reside inside games/ or maybe a special directories should be picked up by Sphere as a game in the GetGameList() (?) function, and launchable.

Having Sphere game "package management" improved eases distribution of Sphere games in general, after all.
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